i'm toure. just 29 days until our gradual slide down the fiscal slope. this is no debt ceiling debacle of 2011. this time the president's acting tough. >> i'm s.e. cupp. if this is the president's starting offer, it's far from the finish line. i have an idea. the republicans should take it? >> what do diaper cakes and hard-boiled eggs have des moiin? >> i'm krystal ball or am i. they're closer to ever to concrete the human brain. the possibilities are endless. >> all of that, and plus did i just see hillary clinton's first campaign ad? i hope so. it's just another manic monday. it's "the cycle." >> i'm glad to see america's

favorite nerd is back at the table. welcome, steve. i hope you feel better. >> that's nice about you. >> i wasn't talking about myself. 1823, silent films star harold lloyd gave us a thrilling moment in american history. here it is. ♪ >> there was no computer generated special effects back then. that was a literal cliff-hanger, and 90 years later it keeps you on the edge of your seat. the literal cliff-hanger is what we have in congress right now. there's little to no doubt we'll avoid doomsday, but for a while we hang over the aabyss in a daredevil stunt of our own making. this makes americans believe congress is a bunch of big, fat liars. when it comes to honesty, congress ranked so low they're

second to used car salesmen. it's a fee even harold lloyd wouldn't attempt to pull off in exchange for an over climactic conclusion. today we debay tut the wheel of fortune style. we use it to determine how to refer to the debate. cliff, slope, fiesta or follies. today we go to fiscal fiesta. are you ready for this fiesta party? >> i'm thrilled and very excited, yes. i wish i had a party the hat and a little horn, you know. >> your enthusiastic is infectious. >> we'll fedex it right now. michael, so far gop leaders are denying an abc report the party is planning a doomsday plan that would allow a vote on extending middle class tax cuts and nothing more by simply voting present. what have you heard and what's the likelihood that would happen?

>> well, i think it's still -- it's sort of the formative stage, and it's not clear when it's going to happen. to me it reflects what is a clear rereality, which is that e status quo favors the democrats and the republicans are finding a way to deal with this. democrats have the upper hand in the default scenario, and republicans, i think, know it's a loser for them to hold middle class tax cuts hostage essentially in the name of keeping taxes low on upper income earners. this is a way to try to muddle through it without being seen to hold up middle class tax cuts, which is a big political loser for them. >> hold on for a second. house republicans released their counteroffer to avert the fiscal cliff. now it's really a fiscal fiesta. since it's a party we called in luke russert who emerged from a briefing. what's on the table? >> reporter: good afternoon, toure. big news here on capitol hill.

we talked about being in a stalemate recently in terms of the fiscal cliff. house speaker john boehner and along with the rest of the leadership has presented an offer to the white house in a letter sent today based off something boles said to the supercommittee last year. you see the offer on the screen. 800 billion through tax reform, 600 billion in health savings, 300 billion in mandatory savings, 300 billion further discretionary savings. it nets to a total of $2.2 trillion in savings. what does it mean? in the letter we know the sticking point is the tax rates. the speaker says, quote, notably the new revenue in the boles plan would not be achieved through higher tax rates, which we continue to oppose and will not agree in order to protect small businesses and our economy. instead new revenue would be generated through pro-growth tax reforms that closes special interest loopholes and deductions while lowering rates. you see in this latest proposal

while they offer up pour savings by saying, look, we can tax the rich people through the $800 billion figure. we can find more savings in entitlements reforms and more savings in discretionary spending more so than the budget control act. they're still holding firm on that pledge not to raise the tax rates towards the bill clinton era. how will this play around in the white house? we don't know. this tax rate point has been a very difficult sticking point. both sides have stayed on and they continue to stay on this in their second offer. what you see is some sort of possible framework for a large scale deal. the $2.2 trillion number, republicans are the first to tell you is bigger than $1.6 trillion the democrats outlined last week. they believe from discussions that have occurred over the last few years in regards to the debt limit and simpson-boles and in regards to the budget control act other biden talks with eric

cantor there is some way forward. this is their blueprint for it. the wonks get deep in the policy. we asked questions in the briefing about that. i asked about the further discretionary savings, 300 billion, about what type of programs are included that. the house progressive caucus is hesitant to cut anything like food stamps that have been on the chopping block before. they say there's a caps that house committees would agree to. what we see from this offer is the speaker saying, look, we can do big savings, we can do a down payment to get us through until next year and then have congress work on a bipartisan way to have a bigger agreement. one other sticking point here, this sequester is not identified in this proposal. so what does that mean? all those defense cuts we heard so much about, essentially the answer is there's enough savings in this plan that could -- that we could deal with the sequester, saying there could be a punt on the sequester by the savings on this plan. there's a lot of information in

here. it's very wonky. obviously, this is drawn out between the geithner and lou and boehner's people, but we see a new offer from speaker john boehner that he is not the house republican budget. they're trying to move more to the middle, and they believe this is the best way to do so, guys. >> on that $600 billion in health savings, do we have any clarity on what that would be? bahama ca obama care, medicare, medicaid? >> from the briefing it pertains to medicare and medicaid. the one specific thing we got is part of the health savings in the $600 billion mark would come from raising the medicare entry age from 65 to 67. something that the house republicans have talked about before. that is very much a big part of that 600 billion in health savings. >> thanks, luke russert, on the hill for breaking it down. let's go back to michael crowley. steve wants to get wonky with you.

>> i haven't looked closely at this. what jumps out is the difference between obama saying he wants 1.6 trillion revenue and republicans say 800 billion in revenue. as luke said, not giving in on the issue of raising tax rates. they hold out this promise of tax reforms with loopholes and deductions. i don't know exactly how they arrive at that. it strikes me when you think back to 2010 when obama went along with extending the bush tax cuts for two more years. he was adamant back then, this is it and i'm doing it for two more years and i'm going to run for re-election and make them go away for rich americans. that's not acceptable to the white house, $800 billion from so-called tax reform. >> well, steve, i mean, you put it sole well i don't know how to improve on that. that's my first reaction, is that the absence of any l giving any ground on the rates mean we haven't moved that far here. i think that that's the key

sticking point here. you know, as a matter of -- a lot of what's happening here is a duel in public opinion and the media, who looks like they're reaching out and who gets blamed if things get ugly. i think the republicans are trying to put a veneer of specificity to look like they're -- i think obama did a good job in the last several days saying republicans rntd putting anything the on the table. they're trying to check that box, but the absence of any give on the rates just doesn't really move us that much closer. i also wonder on that $800 billion number without knowing what they say exactly, are they assuming any new revenue from economic growth? as you know, steve, republicans often like to assume you're going to get more tax revenue through reforms because the economy will grow and bring more ruf new into the coughers. that's not a mainstream economic opinions depending on how you break it down. the white house has problems with a number based on that

premise. i heard in language luke quoted, i thought i heard talk about pro-growth revenue. that sounds a bell with me wondering how are republicans counting it. that's a potential point of conflict. the rates are an issue here. >> michael, on the one hand it's good. republicans needed to come out with some specifics, democrats were right. we can't talk about spending cuts and entitlement cuts when republicans haven't offered anything. maybe we can get specifics in this. i want to go back to the president's original offer. i think not only was it sort of criticized for what was in it or rather what wasn't in it in terms of significant or substantive spending cuts but also for the timing. there simply isn't enough time to start all the way over there and try and argue toward the middle. i'm wondering and i don't want to trivialize this, i actually mean it. what would have happened if republicans had taken the offer and said, great. if that's what you want, we'll sign off, and then watch the

president and democrats have to decide do we really want this kind of package, or do you want to go more for a balanced package that we talked about and then they have to walk it back themselves to the middle? >> well, you know, that's an interesting question. they made that initial deal or that public offer last week without any expectation that republicans were going to take it. i suppose there's a strategy in basketball, you know. a guy -- you're defending a player and he's leaning into you and step back and he falls back down on the ground. republicans could try some variation of that. i guess what you suggest is really interesting. i don't know how it would play out. i think that obama's offer was not particularly realistic. we see to some degree a response to the last round of negotiations are obama felt like he moved to the middle too early. he didn't really get that much out of it. he's drawing a line pretty far out to the edge there. you know, there are also conversations happening back and

forth that don't always reflect everything in public. a lot of what we see right now is jockeying for advantage in the media and battle of public opinion. people getting public opinion leverage. that white house offer was part of that as well. >> michael crowley, talk about big man moves. i had you as a shooting guard and stay outside and not get caught in the fray. >> what are you saying, toure? >> nothing at all. sports talk. thank you, michael crowley. >> thank you so much. >> if you liked 2012 you'll love 2016. i've said it all along, and i have more evidence hillary clinton will be the next president of the united states. we're spinning on that as "the cycle" rolls on for monday, december 3rd. [ fishing rod casting line, marching band playing ] [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it... in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. great taste. mmm... [ male announcer ] sounds good.

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hi, everybody. welcome to the state department. how are you? come on in. where are you all from? come on in. >> what makes hillary hillary is strength, toughness, very strong streak of principle. what makes all of that kind of bearable for the rest of us is when you get to know her, really incredible humor and humanity. that's what makes people not just like her but love her. >> oh, isn't she dreamy? >> yes, she is. >> that's from the annual middle east conference forum where hillary was treated like a queen. there was a short film highlights her many career accolades and aachievements.

no wonder the new yorker says she's running in 2016. this couldn't have been scripted bertd for her. leaving ahead of any benghazi fallout, everybody is begging her to stay. i wouldn't be surprised if there are floor plans for bubba's man cave. let's shed some light on this in the spin cycle. it seems like it was ordained by god. she's leaving just as this scandal is brewing. i mean, might not even touch her. i'm talking about benghazi, of course, even though it directly involves her department. she's on her way out. people are begging her to stay. already talking about when to see more of her. it really does look like everything is coming up roses for hillary. that said, i don't know that she's ever really faced the wrath of the gop machine in its fullest, when you think back to 2008. the gop machine was sort of split, split in its attention to obama and others as well as

hillary. i don't know that she ever got its full attention. of course, back in her senate run, i don't know that anyone thinks that rick lazio was really the -- >> no. >> nothing against rick. he's a great guy. i don't know that she's been fully tested. then again, i don't know that anything is worse than what democrats did to her in 2008. that was a pretty tough test, and i don't know. maybe that almost ininoculated her against the worst of it for 2016. there's really nothing else left to do. what do you think, steve? >> i think she got a little rougher treatment from republicans from about 1992 to 2007. >> all of those years, yes. >> something about whitewater and the rose law firm. i vaguely recall somewhere in there where they hated hillary clinton and they threw everything they had at her. pat buchanan at the 1992 convention in houston saying, you know, it's clinton and clinton. this rad kl feminist lawyer.

we always forget at the start of the 2008 cycle, obama was the underdog and he was going to lose. that was the conventional wisdom. clinton was the bigger front-runner and republicans treated her that way. they wanted to fight the clinton restoration. they were treating obama as this well-meaning, good-natured reformer who would get mowed down by the ruthless, vindictive clinton machine. i always remember the moment and late winter and early spring of 2008 when it became clear obama would beat her. suddenly the right conservatives, republicans saying she was a radical jane fonda suddenly rediscovered hillary clinton as a white working class hero. she was like franc rizzo all of a sudden. the story of the last four years for hillary clinton is republicans laid down for her, and democrats have started -- the democrats with obama and resented her then have gotten over t. the iraq thing is a distant memory. we thought she was the dwroefr

whelming front-runner in '08. we were wrong. >> only hillary can stop hillary at this point. we talk about the republican war machine. this year or the last few years dealing with this imagined obama that didn't exist rather than aattacking the person in the oval office. had they done that, they might have a better chance than dealing with this imagined kenyan, socialist, marxist obama, and if they do that to hillary, they will entirely lose. this is an incredible resume. widely admired and no skeletons in the closet. we know this person extraordinarily well. have we seen a household name like this enter the presidential race? i don't think we have. the biggest thing in iraq was the problem in '08. will not be the problem next time. the biggest problem is generally voters don't give the same party three times in a row. we saent seen the demographic trends against the gop.

we have never seen the gop spinning out into the far right like we have this time. so i think it's hillary he 2016. >> yeah. i am with you, and it's a beautiful thing because i love this woman. another thing i would point out is, you know, just as republicans are over this election and probably looking to hillary and going, oh, we got to take down these approval ratings a bit, she's going to be out of politics. she's going to do good around the world and basically immune to political criticism. i think the approval ratings if anything will continue to climb. the thing i was really thinking about here and i don't want to put the cart before the horse too much, even though i'd love to. it's entirely possible that my daughter, who is 4 now, will wake up when she's 16 and the only two presidents she will have known in her lifetime are an african-american man and a woman. that, to me, is an incredible thing, and i don't know we even know yet how important that could be for the country and for barriers in this country.

>> okay. up next, what the 2012 election, candy corn, oreos and a newly preggers have in common. they're all top searches in 2012. what else made the list. taking us to break still catchy number one song of the year. two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf.

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i was humbled and proud as an american today to see that the 2012 election was the number one on yahoo!'s new list of top searches for 2012. and then i saw this.

♪ i'm a gummy bear ♪ yes i'm a gummy bear ♪ i'm moving and grooving >> that's the gummy bear song, but not the one i remember. it's the number ten top searched song of the year. >> what? >> that green thing will haunt me in my sleep tonight. it goes to show the variety of things that captured americans' attentions. >> make it stop. >> the summer olympics, and iphone5 and eastwood, and americans let their typing fingers do the talking. the next guest is here to tell us what they said about internet, songs and sports teams and more. the guest spot today is heather cabot. welcome to "the cycle," heather. the scary green thing aside, the 2012 election was number one. is that uncommon for politics to top the list like that? >> well, it's unxhcommon for a news story to top the list on

yahoo!. it's only the third time that a news story came out on top. this speaks to a fact that this was an election people followed closely. at number 8, political polls. we actually saw people typing into the yahoo! search engine political polls basically on a daily basis checking in to see where their candidates were at. really following this horse race day to day. that's different than what we saw in 2008 for sure. >> nate silver scores another win there. >> yeah. >> one thing i notice from the lists and the top searches overall, six of the ten were women and no men. in the top olympians, nine were women out of ten. whole binders of women was one of the top internet names. i have a guess, buts why it that women are more searched for than men? >> there are a lot of things going on. this was the year of the woman. if you look at the olympics, every single delegation had a

woman on their team, and on the u.s. team for the first time ever women outnumbered men. we also had the pregnant sharpshooter, and we had woman's boxing for the first time ever at olympics. all these things gathered a lot of attention online. people were following the olympics really closely. as far as women in general, i do think -- if you look at the election, women's issues really were important this year to a lot of people. i think we're on the radar, which is very good. >> yeah. i mean, specifically speaking about women in the olympics, the number one viral photo was of one mckayla maroney that she's not impressed. we had a lot of fun with this in the office. why do you think that took off. >> look at athe picture. it's hilarious. i think what most people found so funny about that is she was being a teenager. it was like a typical teenager's reaction, you know. it was that scowl.

there she is getting a medal. just a medal. it was hilarious. i'm not surprised. one thing surprising about it she garnered more searches than gabby douglas due in part of the photo. >> amazing. >> heather, i'm looking ahead to 2013 here. we have big news today. this rich woman who lives a life of unimaginable privilege in britain, kate middleton, is pregnant today, and people seem really excited about this. is kate middleton pregnant, kate middleton rich baby going to be the top search of 2013? >> a couple of things. yes. i think we can very safe hely project that in 2013 her pregnancy will be chronicled and the birth of the royal baby will certainly be much watched. you know, she actually tops our overall top search list for the year coming in at number 5. so people are just very

fascinated by her. obviously, she received a lot of attention because of the photo scandal but a lot of interest in her style and life. people in the u.s. are just fascinated by her. >> look out, krystal. there's a new baby in town. >> she's pregnant and had a photo scandal. this is weird. >> that's another internet segment we'll do sometime. heather cabot, thanks for joining us. up next, merging man and machine, renowned futurist joining "the cycle" and takes us on a wild ride into the future. i just finished in fascinating book. by the year of 2030, there will be computer that is can carry out the same amount of functions as an actual human brain. so theoretically you could download your thoughts and memories into this computer and live forever as a machine.

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scientists have explored everything from the far reaches of outer space to the depths of ocean. the most complex thing we've discovered in the entire universe is the human brain. one inventor said the brain is the grandest biological frontier with hundreds of billions of cells interlinked through selections and the brain boggles the mind. we understand what's inside the cranium because reverse engineering the human brain may be the most important project in the universe. ray is one of the most brim yant people in the world and he's a futurist and mentor including the new one, how to create a mind, the secret of human thought revealed.

welcome. how are you? >> great to be with you. >> thank you. so you talk about the importance of understanding the inner workings the brain and the mind. why is that so important, and what things do you predict will come the out of understandinging. >> it will help us fix the brain better than we can. secondly, we have more insight into ourselves. that's the goal of art and science from the millennia. it will give us the models to create intelligent machines to make ursz smarter. our little gadgets make us smarter already, but they'll go inside the bodies and brains and actually expand or thinking. in the near future we'll have search engines that anticipate what you want, answer your questions before you ask them, things like that. >> so in your book you talk a lot about the law of accelerated returns and pattern recognition theory of the mind. can you explain what those two things are and how they talk about the brain?

>> the wlau of accelerated returns is the information technology, which includes computers and communications and biological technologies but including understanding our brains is progressing expo tentally. doubl doubling in power every year. we can see inside a living brain with exquisite precision and see your thoughts kraetd your brain. that's part of the secret of human thinking. the recognition of theory of mane is the neokcortex, is base on recognizing patterns. by my account, some do simple jobs like there's a crust part in a capital a. some do high level jobs like she's pretty or that's funny. those recognizers are the same, but they exist at a different level of this grand hierarchy. that's the key to the neocortex.

it's organized in a hierarchical fashion. we create that hierarchy ourselves from the moment we're born or even earlier. >> you know, i've read with some interest about the steps you've taken to sort of do what's called a similarity with machine intelligence and human intelligence is equality or maybe it will overlap a little bit. what if you can talk about the significance of that moment would be and whether you -- how far off do you think that actually? >> intelligence is the most important force in the universe. intelligence allowed us to overcome our problems and reshape the world. human life expectancy was 20 1,000 dwrergz and it's pushing 8 and goes into high gear driven forward by intelligence. we amplify our intelligence by creating machines that emulate our intelligence. they can go out and read everything, all medical journals, everything on the web,

all books and really help guide us through the world of knowledge. i think computer and intelligence is equal by 2029, 2030s will begin to merge with with it by having sbelgts machines inside our bodies and brains keeping us healthy and augmenting the immune system and enabling us to think in the cloud and are direct brain-to-brain communication and so on. >> do you have ethical concerns about that merging human and machine? >> the main ethical concern is technology say double-edged sword. ever since fire we used to keep us warm and used to burn down villages. these are powerful technologies can be used creatively and destructurively. we'll seen both sides in the 20th century. wee have seen a lot of movies about the future where the intelligent machines have it in for us. it takes comfort from the fact

from we're already merging with these technologies. it's very widely distributed. a kid in africa with a smartphone has access to more intelligent knowledge than the president of the united states did years ago. >> ray, aside from the idea that the machines will one day turn against us, and i fully believe they will, you know, there are plenty of reports that suggest that these gadgets and technologies are, in fact, making us dumber because we're relying on them so much it's not challenging us to have to outsmart the competition. this is happening over generations. so is this merging of man and machine ultimately going to be our demise, because we're not really quick-witted enough to see it coming? >> there was a controversy when i went to college about calculator and kids wouldn't learn arithmetic. kids aren't learning it, but the calculators haven't gone away. these machines free us to do what we're uniquely suited to do, which is to be creative,

create new knowledge. >> i thought we were suited to hunt and gather. no? >> we've supplemented that with our neocortex. the neocortex sort of turns raw aggression into writing a poem or creating a tv show and so on. the neocortex is a great sub limb naturor. >> whether you talk about this coming sing later in the 2030s when we have surgically implanted computers into our body, is that enhancing what we already do or is that going to allow us to do things that human beings are not able to do like, say, fly because of things in your feet and whavr you or have perfect and total recall like steve, you know, because of something you have in your brain? >> well, it will enable us to access all of human knowledge directly from our brains because we do that now with devices hanging from our belts. it will make us smarter.

le it will enhance human intelligence. that's why we create tools so we can do things we couldn't otherwise do. but it's not going to enable to fly or be physically spirit. other technology may help us do that. we use planes and cars today to do things physically that we couldn't otherwise do. technology is an extension of ourselves. we create these tools to overcome our limitations. >> all right. fantastic. looking forward to that future when we have computers inside us. >> i'm scared. >> thank you very much, sir. >> my pleasure. >> up neshgs, the tragedy starts a gun control controversy in an unlikely place. "sunday night football." ♪ (announcer) when subaru owners look in the mirror, they see more than themselves. so we celebrate our year-end with the "share the love" event. get a great deal on a new subaru

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you want actual perspective on this, a bit comes from the kansas city based writer jason whitlock, with whom i do not agree but today said it so well, we may as well quote or paraphrase from the end of his article. our current gun culture, whitlock wrote, ensures that more and more domestic disputes will end in the ultimate tragedy and that more convenience store confrontations over loud music from a car will leave more teenage boys bloodied and dead. >> that was nbc's bob costas at halftime of last night's eagles game offering his thoughts on the javon belcher tragedy after

he took his own life this weekend as well as the life of his girlfriend, kasandra perkins, mother of his 3-month-old child. the murder suicide has reignited the violence in football, football and drugs and athletes and guns and, of course, guns and violence. let's backspin on it. i'm a little emotional after reading that. my first thought here is bob costas is in his right to say whatever he wants to say and hold whatever position he wants to hold. i personally have a pretty nuanced position on this issue in general. you know, i think the nra, gun owners of america go too far in imposing any kind of restriction on gun rights. they think you should be able to own anything in any number and carry it in any place at any time, and that i disagree with but what i would say is let's leave the constitution out this because i think that's a complicated argument as well. what i would say is if you want

to infringe on liberty and say you can't do x, y or z, i think the burden of proof has to be on you for why there's a societal need for infringing on that liberty. i've looked into this because i'm sort of on the fence on the issue. i looked back at the 2008 landmark supreme court case about the handgun ban in d.c. justice breyer who was a dissenter in the case and considered a liberal justice looked at the evidence for whether a ban on handguns reducing violence and said that the upshot is a stet of studies and counterstudies that at most leave a judge uncertain about the proper policy conclusions. basically, you know, it's a very mixed bag as to whether totally eliminating guns, restricting guns actually gets at the problem that we're trying to address. >> it doesn't. >> guns are only used for one purpose, and that's killing. there's no other way to use

them. >> my dad uses them for target practice. >> so do i. >> they facilitate, amplify and escalate anger. they make killing easier. soldiers talk about very close killing people when you're close do them. it takes no courage at all to pull a trigger. so they make us less safer. we have 3,000 kids killed by firearms each year. that's more than the number of soldiers killed. one of the things we didn't quite was jason whitlock saying from bob costas saying handguns don't enhance safety and exacerbate flaws. that's true, and how many times do we have to hear of a troubled person grabbing a gun and taking their emotions out on somebody else with that gun. javon belcher is clearly a person who had a tremendous amount of pain in his life. he shot his girlfriend eight times. that is an extraordinary amount of anger spilling out of him. this is not what the founders

envisioned, and this is not the best policy that we can have for our society. >> that anger is what we should be talking about. we're talking about the weapons. we're not talking about domestic violence, and that does a huge disservice to the woman who is in that situation who his done o service by bob costas telling millions of nfl viewers that they have permission to blame guns instead of the person who pulled the trigger. so we're not going to talk about the reason for domestic violence. we're not going to talk about maybe whether or not this guy had psychiatric problems. we're going to talk about the gun. for whitlock or costas to give an inanimate object human capabilities, saying that handguns exacerbate our flaws and bait us into embracing confrontation is absolutely absurd, and i think that rather than talk about the guns, what

we should be talking about is the root of the problem and bob costas has, i think, done something shameful and irresponsible and is going to have some blood on his hands in the future if we continue to talk about the wrong problem, what is not the problem. handguns. >> well, i wish you'd grapple with some statistics before you say something like statistics -- >> i looked into this a lot, steve, and many -- >> s.e. -- >> very few are submitted in handguns. >> in a house with a gun a domestic disturbance is 12 times more likely to end in a homicide. a woman living in a house with gaun is five times more likely to be murdered. two-thirds of all women who are killed by guns in this country, and by the way, that's five women a day, two-thirds of them are in domestic disturbances. so you don't say it's just about the gun here and we're ignoring domestic violence. there's a link here.

a gun plus domestic violence turns what would be a horrible situation where a woman gets beat up but at least has a chance to get out with her life and to get away from that situation, it takes that and it makes her dead. that's -- when you add a gun to that situation, that's what happens. >> most women are in danger in domestic violence situations because of fists and hands. what we need to be looking -- anything can be a weapon, steve. anything can be a weapon -- >> but i just established that that the difference between having the gun in the house -- >> not the object. >> but there's a 12 times difference between those two things. that's statistically significant. >> let me attempt to mediate this dispute here. i think one thing that, you know, liberals, gun control advocates do need to bear in mind is there are a lot of very responsible gun owners. my father is one of them, s.e. is one of them, and i think that it's easy to take things very personally when you are blaming

the gun because you are in a way casting aspersions on everybody who owns a firearm, and so i think we do have to be very careful about the language that we use around that, about pointing out, you know, the root causes of domestic violence, that it's not just the guns, even though those statistics bear out that it does create a much more dangerous situation. so that's one thing that i would just caution us on. >> i think bob costas could have really had a great moment if he realized that he had a captive audience, mostly of men, to talk about the horrors of domestic violence and really raise that as an issue instead of i think very recklessly just talking about the gun -- >> and ignore the element that takes domestic violence and makes it 12 times nor likely to lead to somebody dying. let's just ignore that. >> filmmaker ken burns looks back at a story toure says is both old and, unfortunately, new again. i had enough of feeling embarrassed about my skin. [ designer ] enough of just covering up my moderate to severe

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i look back at the jogger case and wish i had been more skeptical as a journalist. you know, a lot of people didn't do their jobs, reporters, police, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and these young men were the proxies for all kinds of other agendas. >> these alleged perpetrators, we always have to say alleged because that's the requirement. when those grandmothers say, but he's a good boy, he never did anything, don't you believe it.

>> i found some cockamamy excuse to vote guilty just to get out of there. >> are you just saying that because i am asking you -- >> no, no. >> why didn't you say it before? why did you tell them something that wasn't true, that you hadn't seen? >> just to save my own life. >> when he wrote the trial he could have been talking about black men and the american criminal justice system. the sense we enter a bizarre system where we are guilty until proven innocent pulses through central park five about the central park jogger case that riveted new york and most of america in 1989 and 1990 by ken burns who we will have on this show on wednesday. a 29-year-old white woman from wall street was found raped and beaten savagely. it appeared unlikely she would survive. a group of 30 black and brown boys had been moving through the park that night beating up a homeless man and a male jogger but they never saw the female

jogger. police picked up five. them, taen ateenagers all. held them for 30 hours and demanded they tell them about the crime they did not witness. the boys implicated each other because they were scared, stressed, and coerced by the police. the d.a.'s office later says the boy's accounts had discrepancies. dna couldn't place them at the bloody scene. the boys were said by police and media to have been in a wolf pack and to have been wilding reducing them to animals and violent beasts. they never had a chance. they were convicted and served their full sentences before another man came forward to confess, producing accurate details and dna that was at the scene. mayor koch called it the crime of the century, but now that it's not just about rape on hallowed new york city ground

but about five lives shattered, the crime of the century takes on different meaning. it calls into mind the nine scotsboro boys convicted of raping a woman. it's why george zimmerman followed trayvon martin. that presumption of guilt may be why jordan davis was shot and killed. michael dunn fired eight or nine rounds from his car at another that davis was in because after trading angry words, dunn said he saw four black then and a shotgun. police do not find said shotgun. some don't understand how a central park jogger case can happen in a city that would happen in a city that would elect david dinkens. being black in america is